Can someone list the cons/downfalls of why Ethanol is viewed so negatively?
9 Comments
4rgum3nt
Ethanol made from Corn, requires something huge like 1,500 Gallons of water for One Gallon of Ethanol to produce.
The only reason it was/is a cheap fuel substitute was because of tax brakes and subsidies given by many governments (ie. USA, Australia and Brazil)
Ethanol production as well as being water intensive, because it is made with food crops actually is contributing to making food more expensive (less crops for food).
Also because ethanol production uses a food crop, if a huge crop fails (like the drought in Australia) then not only will you be without food, but be without fuel. And also the decision may have to come down to "do we eat, or do we make ethanol to sell and buy food (or get aid) from someone else?"
LuckyOne
First of all not all cars can use this alternative fuel source. Second, ethanol must be mixed with some percentage of gasoline so it is still using fuel. It won’t completely wean us off of oil, which is well needed in our curent environmental situation.
rotorhead
Try this one. One gallon of fossil fuel is used in the production of one gallon of bio fuel.
Sort of defeats the purpose, yes?
I won’t even go into all the Rain Forest that is being bulldozed to grow soybeans for fuel.
Then there is the part where we are burning our food and the rising costs are causing a new wave of starvation to poor countries.
BeachBum818
Its not efficient. It takes 15% more ethanol/gasoline mix to travel the same distance as you would with 100% gasoline. So even though there are less carbon emissions you will be burning more gas, you`ll need to fill up more frequently with the "watered down" . So the question is would you rather burn a fuel with 1/2 the emissions for twice as long or full of emissions for 1/2 as long?
richard b
ethanol is not the magic bullet that some want it to be in regards to replacing gasoline, but it isn’t the disaster that others make it out to be either. any vehicle that burns fuel can use alcohol, but there are problems. for instance;
you need to use ethanol proof fuel lines otherwise the alcohol attacks the rubber and creates leaks.
you need to use a steel needle and seat in the carburettor otherwise the viton needle will dissolve and cause severe flooding.
if you have efi, you need to re-flash the computer to handle the extra fuel needed, and you need to install larger injectors
alcohol is a solvent and will clean out all the crude in the gas tank, so you will need to keep changing the fuel filter to prevent plugging up the system.
you need to run more alcohol that gasoline to get a proper fuel mixture.
in cold weather alcohol tends to make the engine harder to start as alcohol does not vaporize as easily as gasoline does
there are benefits to using alcohol though and they are;
higher octane rating. alcohol has an octane rating of 105, where as most gasoline has a rating between 85 and 93 depending on grade
alcohol is renewable since you can make it from a number of sources
alcohol can be made by the person using it as long as you file the right paperwork with the BATF, and pay your taxes on the fuel you use.
alcohol can be mixed with gasoline, and if you have efi, and you install a flex fuel sensor along with larger injectors and alcohol proof fuel lines, you can run up to E85 with no problem.
i will caution you though that alcohol is not more environmentally friendly than gasoline, it just burns colder and cant be read by the emission sensors.
Mike T
There are a lot of good points here. One was left out, Ethanol is mainly produced by cooking down or fermenting food crops. The majority of the fuel used in the process is coal. Kind of defeats the environmental purpose doesn’t it?
wayfstr
E85 isn’t as bad as many people make it out to be. It is energy efficient to make ethanol and those who say otherwise haven’t really done their homework.
The automotive guy who does racing was right on pretty much everything he said.
Ethanol is an alcohol. It does have a few negatives but not nearly as many as people think.
1. It’s only about 90% as efficient as gasoline. So if you bought 10 gallons of ethanol you could drive about as far on it as you would on about 9 gallons of gasoline.
2. In the US, ethanol needs to be combined with gasoline for cold weather conditions. That’s why you will see ethanol sold as E85. Ethanol is mixed with 15% gasoline so the car will start easily in cold weather.
3. The car needs to be made to run on E85. If the fuel system is not designed to handled ethanol, it can eat through some of the parts in the fuel system. I believe rubber is vulnerable to being dissolved or eaten by ethanol. That’s why your car needs to be a flex-fuel vehicle or E85 compatible. The nice thing is that there are already millions of E85 compatible vehicles on the road. E85 capable vehicles mainly started being manufactured around 2000. Your owners manual should tell you if your car can handle E85. Or it may tell you near your gas cap. If either of those fail, you should be able to call the car company with your vin number and find out.
4. There are not that many fuel stations around the country, but the number is increasing rapidly. You can go onto the website http://www.e85fuel.com and find out locations around you that carry it and find out other answers to E85 questions.
5. Ethanol is very water soluble. This makes pipe distribution hard, unlike with gasoline or diesel that act more like an oil. With those the water will separate off to the top. With ethanol the water will blend right in with the ethanol. This can increase distribution costs because it has to be trucked to its destination.
Some positives about ethanol:
1. Fossil fuels release CO2 that has been trapped for possibly millions of years. Whereas with bio-fuels the CO2 they release is counter-acted by the CO2 the plant absorbs while growing.
2. Ethanol is a renewable fuel.
3. Ethanol bought in the US is normally produced right in the US.
4. Ethanol is efficient to produce. Bacteria can be used to produce ethanol making the method very efficient and cheap.
5. Making ethanol does not really reduce the amount of food nearly as much as people think. And if ethanol is produced from cellulose with bacteria processes it would have no impact on the food supply.
6. It contributes very little to the rise in cost of food. The main rise in food cost is due to the rise in fuel costs.
Alcohol production as a system still needs to be refined before it can be a large-scale effective solution. However most of the negative things you hear about ethanol are propagated by those that stand to lose the most from it (the petroleum industry). This is a website from one of the leading ethanol advocates; while I don’t agree with everything on it, it has some good insight. http://alcoholcanbeagas.com/node/490
The biggest myth is that you need to modify your cars to use ethanol, when in fact Detroit made the necessary modifcations over 15 years ago in response to the overseas car-makers doing the same.
idahoboy
There are more downfalls of ethanol than there are things it improves. One of the biggest downfalls of ethanol it the energy it contains. Ethanol has 30% less energy than gasoline. This in return means you will have 30% less fuel economy and have to gas up that many times more. Ethanol however does have a higher octane rating. This means the compression in an engine can be increased, which if done does get the fuel economy almost back to where gasoline it. The higher octane rating is why ethanol it used in racing. However, most vehicles that can use ethanol are Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV’s), which also run on regular gasoline. These engines cannot use the higher compression because it would cause engine problems when running on gasoline
Also, the net energy from planting, harvesting, transporting, manufacturing ethanol uses 17% more energy than gasoline (Patzek). The reason ethanol is cheaper is because it has many subsidies that decrease the price. The negative net energy also shows us that ethanol cannot be a renewable energy source unless something is drastically change in the manufacturing process.
The second biggest downfall of ethanol that many things are not compatible with it. Aluminum, zinc, bass, rubber, cork gaskets, and PVC are all degraded with ethanol. This can really cause problems for vehicles that are not designed for ethanol. Anything the fuel comes in contact with may be destroyed, or move bits of things down the fuel line plugging up other things like valves, injectors, fuel hose, ect. This fact is really important for older vehicles because it will completely destroy them, while newer ones won’t suffer quite as much. I’ve seen first hand what E85 can do to a fuel hose that was not made for it. It did not take very long before there was no hose left at all. It also destroyed a fuel pump not made for it because it eats all of the metal in the inside of the pump.
The destructive power of ethanol also makes it harder and more expensive to move around. Because it degrades aluminum, it cannot be transported in pipelines, or most tanker cars/trailers. It is transported in stainless steel tanks, which are heavier and therefor, means less ethanol can be transported per load than gasoline. This just adds to the negative net energy and is also the reason it is not widely used throughout the United States.
Another downfall of ethanol is the emissions that come from it. E85 releases 2000% more acetaldehyde and 60% more formaldehyde than gasoline (Jacobson). These are both cancer causing pollutants and will cause more cancer caused deaths in the future. E85 does decrease NOx emissions by 30% and a very slight decrease with CO2 emissions.
These are the main reasons why ethanol is wrong. Below are the papers I cited and others that have good info.
Ethanol made from Corn, requires something huge like 1,500 Gallons of water for One Gallon of Ethanol to produce.
The only reason it was/is a cheap fuel substitute was because of tax brakes and subsidies given by many governments (ie. USA, Australia and Brazil)
Ethanol production as well as being water intensive, because it is made with food crops actually is contributing to making food more expensive (less crops for food).
Also because ethanol production uses a food crop, if a huge crop fails (like the drought in Australia) then not only will you be without food, but be without fuel. And also the decision may have to come down to "do we eat, or do we make ethanol to sell and buy food (or get aid) from someone else?"
First of all not all cars can use this alternative fuel source. Second, ethanol must be mixed with some percentage of gasoline so it is still using fuel. It won’t completely wean us off of oil, which is well needed in our curent environmental situation.
Try this one. One gallon of fossil fuel is used in the production of one gallon of bio fuel.
Sort of defeats the purpose, yes?
I won’t even go into all the Rain Forest that is being bulldozed to grow soybeans for fuel.
Then there is the part where we are burning our food and the rising costs are causing a new wave of starvation to poor countries.
Its not efficient. It takes 15% more ethanol/gasoline mix to travel the same distance as you would with 100% gasoline. So even though there are less carbon emissions you will be burning more gas, you`ll need to fill up more frequently with the "watered down" . So the question is would you rather burn a fuel with 1/2 the emissions for twice as long or full of emissions for 1/2 as long?
ethanol is not the magic bullet that some want it to be in regards to replacing gasoline, but it isn’t the disaster that others make it out to be either. any vehicle that burns fuel can use alcohol, but there are problems. for instance;
you need to use ethanol proof fuel lines otherwise the alcohol attacks the rubber and creates leaks.
you need to use a steel needle and seat in the carburettor otherwise the viton needle will dissolve and cause severe flooding.
if you have efi, you need to re-flash the computer to handle the extra fuel needed, and you need to install larger injectors
alcohol is a solvent and will clean out all the crude in the gas tank, so you will need to keep changing the fuel filter to prevent plugging up the system.
you need to run more alcohol that gasoline to get a proper fuel mixture.
in cold weather alcohol tends to make the engine harder to start as alcohol does not vaporize as easily as gasoline does
there are benefits to using alcohol though and they are;
higher octane rating. alcohol has an octane rating of 105, where as most gasoline has a rating between 85 and 93 depending on grade
alcohol is renewable since you can make it from a number of sources
alcohol can be made by the person using it as long as you file the right paperwork with the BATF, and pay your taxes on the fuel you use.
alcohol can be mixed with gasoline, and if you have efi, and you install a flex fuel sensor along with larger injectors and alcohol proof fuel lines, you can run up to E85 with no problem.
i will caution you though that alcohol is not more environmentally friendly than gasoline, it just burns colder and cant be read by the emission sensors.
There are a lot of good points here. One was left out, Ethanol is mainly produced by cooking down or fermenting food crops. The majority of the fuel used in the process is coal. Kind of defeats the environmental purpose doesn’t it?
E85 isn’t as bad as many people make it out to be. It is energy efficient to make ethanol and those who say otherwise haven’t really done their homework.
The automotive guy who does racing was right on pretty much everything he said.
Ethanol is an alcohol. It does have a few negatives but not nearly as many as people think.
1. It’s only about 90% as efficient as gasoline. So if you bought 10 gallons of ethanol you could drive about as far on it as you would on about 9 gallons of gasoline.
2. In the US, ethanol needs to be combined with gasoline for cold weather conditions. That’s why you will see ethanol sold as E85. Ethanol is mixed with 15% gasoline so the car will start easily in cold weather.
3. The car needs to be made to run on E85. If the fuel system is not designed to handled ethanol, it can eat through some of the parts in the fuel system. I believe rubber is vulnerable to being dissolved or eaten by ethanol. That’s why your car needs to be a flex-fuel vehicle or E85 compatible. The nice thing is that there are already millions of E85 compatible vehicles on the road. E85 capable vehicles mainly started being manufactured around 2000. Your owners manual should tell you if your car can handle E85. Or it may tell you near your gas cap. If either of those fail, you should be able to call the car company with your vin number and find out.
4. There are not that many fuel stations around the country, but the number is increasing rapidly. You can go onto the website http://www.e85fuel.com and find out locations around you that carry it and find out other answers to E85 questions.
5. Ethanol is very water soluble. This makes pipe distribution hard, unlike with gasoline or diesel that act more like an oil. With those the water will separate off to the top. With ethanol the water will blend right in with the ethanol. This can increase distribution costs because it has to be trucked to its destination.
Some positives about ethanol:
1. Fossil fuels release CO2 that has been trapped for possibly millions of years. Whereas with bio-fuels the CO2 they release is counter-acted by the CO2 the plant absorbs while growing.
2. Ethanol is a renewable fuel.
3. Ethanol bought in the US is normally produced right in the US.
4. Ethanol is efficient to produce. Bacteria can be used to produce ethanol making the method very efficient and cheap.
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/energy.php
5. Making ethanol does not really reduce the amount of food nearly as much as people think. And if ethanol is produced from cellulose with bacteria processes it would have no impact on the food supply.
6. It contributes very little to the rise in cost of food. The main rise in food cost is due to the rise in fuel costs.
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/tortilla_cost.php
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/truth_about_corn.pdf
Alcohol production as a system still needs to be refined before it can be a large-scale effective solution. However most of the negative things you hear about ethanol are propagated by those that stand to lose the most from it (the petroleum industry). This is a website from one of the leading ethanol advocates; while I don’t agree with everything on it, it has some good insight.
http://alcoholcanbeagas.com/node/490
The biggest myth is that you need to modify your cars to use ethanol, when in fact Detroit made the necessary modifcations over 15 years ago in response to the overseas car-makers doing the same.
There are more downfalls of ethanol than there are things it improves. One of the biggest downfalls of ethanol it the energy it contains. Ethanol has 30% less energy than gasoline. This in return means you will have 30% less fuel economy and have to gas up that many times more. Ethanol however does have a higher octane rating. This means the compression in an engine can be increased, which if done does get the fuel economy almost back to where gasoline it. The higher octane rating is why ethanol it used in racing. However, most vehicles that can use ethanol are Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV’s), which also run on regular gasoline. These engines cannot use the higher compression because it would cause engine problems when running on gasoline
Also, the net energy from planting, harvesting, transporting, manufacturing ethanol uses 17% more energy than gasoline (Patzek). The reason ethanol is cheaper is because it has many subsidies that decrease the price. The negative net energy also shows us that ethanol cannot be a renewable energy source unless something is drastically change in the manufacturing process.
The second biggest downfall of ethanol that many things are not compatible with it. Aluminum, zinc, bass, rubber, cork gaskets, and PVC are all degraded with ethanol. This can really cause problems for vehicles that are not designed for ethanol. Anything the fuel comes in contact with may be destroyed, or move bits of things down the fuel line plugging up other things like valves, injectors, fuel hose, ect. This fact is really important for older vehicles because it will completely destroy them, while newer ones won’t suffer quite as much. I’ve seen first hand what E85 can do to a fuel hose that was not made for it. It did not take very long before there was no hose left at all. It also destroyed a fuel pump not made for it because it eats all of the metal in the inside of the pump.
The destructive power of ethanol also makes it harder and more expensive to move around. Because it degrades aluminum, it cannot be transported in pipelines, or most tanker cars/trailers. It is transported in stainless steel tanks, which are heavier and therefor, means less ethanol can be transported per load than gasoline. This just adds to the negative net energy and is also the reason it is not widely used throughout the United States.
Another downfall of ethanol is the emissions that come from it. E85 releases 2000% more acetaldehyde and 60% more formaldehyde than gasoline (Jacobson). These are both cancer causing pollutants and will cause more cancer caused deaths in the future. E85 does decrease NOx emissions by 30% and a very slight decrease with CO2 emissions.
These are the main reasons why ethanol is wrong. Below are the papers I cited and others that have good info.